Building Your Referral Village

#80. Inspired by the viral rise of Sabeer Bhatia and Jack Smith, founders of Hotmail. Sevana and Tiffany talk about how to build a referral village to grow a business.

Topics in today's episode includes:

- What is a referral partner and how to meet one

- How to build your own referral network

- How to do 1:1 for referral opportunities

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Our podcast is originally a video podcast, so see us on YouTube or Spotify too.

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Got questions or have a topic you want Sevana and Tiffany to cover? Email us at thebusinessbehindsmallbusiness@gmail.com and see your question answers or topic of interest discussed on a future episode!

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About BBSB - We are two business owners with two very different perspectives on building business, and the business behind that in order to achieve your goals. One of us built to sell, and will continue on the serial entrepreneur path, which means your focus and drive should include very particular tools and tips in order to achieve your goal. The other, is building a generational business, one that can go on long after she’s let go of the wheel. This type of business also requires very specific tools and platforms to achieve this goal. Both women have been successful in their own right, but in honesty - haven’t scratched the surface! 

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Disclaimer - Details of today’s story was inspired by true events but are not based on proven facts. Also, we are NOT licensed financial experts, nor do we give financial advice. Anything we share with you here on our podcast, whether it be a personal experience or submission, or advice/tips that have worked for us, or that we believe would work for you should not be viewed as either financial, business, or tax advice. We ask for you to do your research, have open and honest conversations with your company’s own support providers and make decisions based upon that. Throughout this broadcast we will share our knowledge and give suggestions and hope you will receive them as part of your overall research to better your own company.

#smallbusinessadvice #entrepreneurship #referralpartners #businesspodcast #businessreferrals #howtogrowabusiness

References & Resources Used For This Episode:

1. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-use-referral-traction-channel-hotmail-case-nicola-zaffonato/
2. https://steemit.com/steemstem/@conceptual-book/hotmail-the-history-of-email#:~:text=Hotmail%20was%20born%20by%20the,which%20is%20where%20they%20worked.
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Smith_(Hotmail)
4. https://www.technologyreview.com/innovator/sabeer-bhatia/
5. https://en.chatstickmarket.com/single-post/history-of-hotmail
6. https://hamradio.my/2024/03/the-evolution-of-hotmail-a-pioneering-web-based-email-service/
7. https://stanfordmag.org/contents/what-s-the-big-idea
8. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=88871
9. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-use-referral-traction-channel-hotmail-case-nicola-zaffonato/
10. https://steemit.com/steemstem/@conceptual-book/hotmail-the-history-of-email#:~:text=Hotmail%20was%20born%20by%20the,which%20is%20where%20they%20worked.
11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Smith_(Hotmail)
12. https://www.technologyreview.com/innovator/sabeer-bhatia/
13. https://en.chatstickmarket.com/single-post/history-of-hotmail
14. https://hamradio.my/2024/03/the-evolution-of-hotmail-a-pioneering-web-based-email-service/
15. https://stanfordmag.org/contents/what-s-the-big-idea
16. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=888715

Alternative Titles:

How To Network In Business

How To Meet Referral Partners

How to Get Business Referrals

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

They say it takes a small village to raise a child, but did you know you can also use a village to grow a small business? Uh, that's what one man did when he had what he knew to be a billion-dollar idea and no capital to support it. Actually, it was two men, but whatever. What do you do when you have a business idea or a business that could change your life, change the world, but really don't know how to get it to the masses? You exploit your village. Welcome to our show, the business behind small business. Whether you're selling or staying, we're here to remind you that just because you own a business doesn't mean you are a business owner. We are your hosts, Savannah Stone and Tiffany K.O. Sharing the more finite details between uh rather of entrepreneurship, revealing the dots between startup and success. No one gets to a million without getting a little dirty. I don't know that I can ever say that without dirty. There's a lot of business behind small business, so let's get to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

I'm not gonna judge you for liking that word. You go right ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Say the word dirty. Dirty. Um before we begin, uh please note our disclaimer. This is available in both our show notes and on our website and should be referred to before and or after this podcast. Uh, before we get started, I feel it's important that we discuss the elephant in the room.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Or on the internet.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Uh better yet, the war waged on my interpretation of Smarties.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

What is a smarty, Savannah?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

I mean, it ain't even right. We so appreciate our followers and our viewers, and of course our commenters, and I especially appreciate being called out when my ignorance on a matter comes to light. Let it be known that my most international experience is shopping at world market. So forgive me when I do not know what a British version of Smarties is, and that it's the same as the American MM. I didn't know that. Uh, my exposure to Smarties here in the US shaped my understanding of what Smarty candy is, and for that I apologize.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Those little tardy, chalky pieces of candy and uh clear wrap, like that's what I thought a SMARTy was, but apparently I've been living in America for way too long.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Apparently, it was pointed out to me that a quick Google search would have told me exactly what a British SMARTy what is. However, I will also apologize for not having checked in on something I was unaware that I was supposed to be checking in on. So I promised to do better. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, right? And that was me. I did not know about British version of Smarties.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

So this is us officially issuing, officially issuing a correction on our last podcast. And then um, and the world should continue to turn. Let's hope so.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Um also, we do hope that you are enjoying our new format where we are putting a larger light on a famous example that is connected to our topic. Because of time and uh because it's not the main focus of our show, we do leave a lot of details out, which is why we share the compressed version or a portion that is the most connected to our topic. And then we share the links with you and our show notes so that you can learn more from there. For example, our last show on the Mars family and their rise to success does not include some other main characters and their contributions, but that was, of course, because it didn't make sense to what we were talking about in the show, nor did we really have time to expand on that, meaning those characters or those persons that were influential to the Mars family did not have a father-son connection, and our show was about uh working with your children. Ergo, that's why it was not in there. Um, thank you so much for watching our YouTube videos, listening to our podcast, and of course our YouTube shorts and commenting on all the platforms. Uh, we want to always we always want to hear from you. Feel free to share with us what you would like for us to do on our show. After all, we are here to help you grow and strengthen your business. And if I say something wrong or if Tiffany says something wrong, I expect you to call us out. And with that, we're going to start our show. We can take it. We can take it.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

What a smarty scandal you had on your hands.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

I mean, it was insane. I I was like, gosh.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Not the thing you want to go famous for, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

But now I know. I feel like now I'm gonna see Smarties everywhere next time I fly through the.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

I will never make that mistake. Anytime anyone, like Halloween is gonna be horrible for everyone because I'm gonna be talking about it the entire time. Hey, did you know that the Smarties? Hey, did you know that the eminent Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna be that person.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Anywho And on to today's show and lessons learned from history.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah. Sabir Bhatya was born in 1968 and raised in Shandagarh, India. His father was a captain in the Indian Army and his mother worked for the Central Bank of India. He enjoyed a quiet middle class life in India and attended a boys' school in Bangalore. Caltech offered him a transfer scholarship, so at the age of 19 and with $250 in his pocket, he arrived in the U.S. not knowing a singular person here. Although Sabir's intention was to go back to India after college to get a great job in India with an Indian company, he decided to get a master's degree instead from Stanford University. Soon thereafter, still not ready to go back to India, he got a job at Apple Computer. This is where he met Jack Smith. I will admit, I could not find a whole lot about Jack's childhood, however, it seems the two of them struck up a friendship pretty quickly. Every morning, Sabir would come to work and stop by Jack's cubicle and tell him a story about how someone had just sold his company for millions, and he would say to Jack, What are we doing here wasting our lives? It was an easy question for Sabir to ask, but not an easy one for Jack to answer. Jack was shy, he was a very shy person, and at this point in his life he had a wife and children, and for him there was a little bit more at stake. Starting their own business was petrifying, and at this point, both men they were just cubicle dwellers. What did either of them really know about running a business or starting a business anyway? The doubt Jack had in his head did not stop his brain from moving. The idea of creating a software or platform that was so explosive it could change the world forever was exciting to him. Jack and Sabir brainstormed possible ideas for a few months. They did their best to keep their ideas offline, so you know, so they wouldn't get fired. Even though both men had personal AOL accounts, they couldn't access them through the office network. They both had to wait until they got home to share their ideas. So whatever idea Jack had in the morning that was incredible and he wanted to share it with Sabir, by the time he got home, that idea had vanished. He had a problem. He had a sharing problem. He had a problem with the sharing ability of whatever he wanted to share. I know this makes no sense, but it will in a minute. How many times can you use the word share in a sentence?

SPEAKER_02 7:47

That was a lot of shares in one share. Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Jack called Sabir from his phone. Uh, sorry, from his car phone. Sabir responded after hearing one sentence, and I quote, hi, hang up that cellular and call me back on a secure line when you get to your house. We don't want anyone to overhear. Did he just say cellular? He did. I mean, we're talking what 90 and early 90s or mid-90s.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

It has to be in the 90s. We're talking about car phones and cellular and AOL being tethered to your your physical computer, which is something I'm sure the kids today cannot even fathom. But yes, that was an actual thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

It was. And it's hard to believe that there was ever a time in which you couldn't just email someone or send a text back then. I cannot believe we grew up in that. It's it's great. I know. And the funny thing is, is that what they their idea was not brilliant, it wasn't a brilliant idea they had. Anyone could have come up with this idea.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Nothing that the government would tap into the cellular line to listen to that he was so paranoid about.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

You know, I can see why he was paranoid about it, and we'll we'll get into that. You hopefully understand why he would have gotten paranoid about it. But the interesting thing is, is that this idea was not it was huge and small at the same time. Like, huh, why didn't I ever think of that? You know, it was one of those inventions. Um, but this story is not about the idea, it's about what they did with it. According to Stanford Magazine, in mid-1995, Sabir began shopping around a business plan for a net-based personal database called Java Soft. Venture capitalists were skeptical of the software market, though. Too hard to get good distribution and rise above the fray. This is this is when um Silicon Valley was really at the height, when there was so much motion going on. And these were two bells and everything. And these were two guys, very small voices, basically, you know, trying to be heard in a crowd of thousands. It's like wild, wild blast.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

I mean, really kind of like it's exponentially bigger back then. I mean, relative. Yes. Back then, it like it was it was still pretty big and a really, really wild, wild west film.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

So when Jack and Sabir came up with the Hotmail idea in December, Java Soft became, in effect, the front for Hotmail. Is it Java or is it Java? I'm gonna say Java.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Java. No, you're you're probably saying it right in the how like American like pronunciation rules are because it's Java, Java.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

But then, you know, as as we do with American language always, we would probably just say Java too.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's the Midwest coming out of me because I also say room and not room. So there's that. Now everybody's gonna hear it.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Okay, so seeing that I think people take it for granted today what big deal hot mail was back in the day when it first came out.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

It it really was hot. I mean, how how well named was that? Hot mail. Sabir knew that hotmail was such an explosive concept. He didn't want a less than ethical VC to reject him and then turn around to copy his idea. So that would be the reason why he was like, get yourself on a secure line. Because, like I said, this was a huge idea that was so simple. It was like, oh my gosh, anybody could have done it.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Well, simple to us today, too, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah, but also simple within their industry.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yeah, I could see that.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Yeah. So he kept showing Java Java Java, JavaScript, and only showed hotmail to those VCs he had had gained respect for. Uh he says, as he says, I got to see how their minds worked. If they rejected JavaScript for some stupid reasons, then I said thank you and left. If they rejected it for the right reasons, then I showed them hot mail. At Sabir's first presentation to Steve Jervitsen of Dra is it Jervitsen or Jervitsen? Now I'm going Swedish.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

I am so sorry that I made you doubt yourself.

SPEAKER_03 12:03

Jervisen. No, I don't know if I'm saying anything right. Thanks so much. Anyway, at Sabir's Sabir's first presentation to Steve Jervidson of Draper Fisher Jervidson, things weren't going well. But Jervitsen was rejecting JavaScript for the right reasons. So late in the hour, Sabir played the hotmail card. He mentioned it ever so subtly, characterizing it as a marketing tool. Jervidsen wasn't fooled. He saw the pot of gold. In June, with the product ready for launch in a month, Sabir was running out of money, but he knew that if he launched the service first, he could keep all the leverage over his investors. He convinced all of his first 15 employees to work only for stock options. Not a very common occurrence in the Valley, where the unemployment rate was zip oh, and most jobs came with pay and stock. My greatest accomplishment, Sabir says, was not to build a company but to convince people that this is their company. I showed people how this ultimately would benefit them. I didn't do the work, but we initiated the avalanche. They launched on July 4th, 1996, Independence Day. It was a fitting date because Sabir and Jack believed free email was a great populist tool. By then, everyone who owned a computer had email. But with webmail, you could log in from anywhere. So, like, let's step back from this because again, I'm we're gonna assume that there are listeners that maybe don't even remember this because to be honest, I've forgotten that that was a thing. That if you wanted to get into your email, you had to wait until you got home to get into your email.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

You couldn't like your account tethered to your the only computer you installed it on. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

So during brainstorming about what to do, Draper from the venture capital firm funding them had the idea of putting a message with a link at the bottom of every email saying, and if you remember what the saying was, bonus points to you because I remember this when I got my very first hotmail. PS I love you, get your free email at Hotmail. He also proposed the link was persistent with the mail conversation when the mail conversation went on. So that morning, Sabir and Jack were beepers programmed to flash every hour with the tally of new subscribers. The first users found it all by themselves. Then they told their friends a hundred in the first hour, two hundred in the next hour, two hundred and fifty in the third. The idea was so intuitively powerful that 80% of those who sign up for Hotmail say that they learned about it from a friend. The success of this initiative changed the destiny of Hotmail, bringing the company to exponential growth. The idea led the company to massive growth, and the number of subscribers was around 8.5 million in December of 1997, one year after the launch of the service, when Microsoft acquired Hotmail for an estimated 500 million. Hotmail, which is now Microsoft Outlook, revolutionized the way we communicate and interact with each other, offering freedom to users to access messages from any web browser. Pretty cool, huh?

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Thank you, Savannah, for the blast from the past. Now I recall what it's like to be in the 90s. Hey, but you know, Hotmail did something pretty awesome. Um, I actually read about their story um a little while back, and I was kind of inspired by their marketing cleverness. And now I know what you mean by exploiting the village. Um so essentially they basically, you know, created something kind of viral that that went on, or what we term as viral now. Back then, I guess the word avalanche is how you describe it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

But essentially it grew exceptionally fast and exponentially fast. And the reality is that um that was probably in a unicorn, but there is a lot of power behind referrals, as you can see. And even though they did it in a very clever way by email, a lot of businesses can do really well if they pay attention to how they're actually getting referrals. Um, I know for myself that um whatever business I'm in, um, referrals is always the fastest way to pick up business because everything else takes time, whether or not you're doing social media marketing or you're doing uh email campaigns, anything else, it just takes a lot of time. And if you think about kind of how to get people to buy from you, it's really just like three stages is no, like, trust, and buy. And so when you have a referral uh partner or somebody who's willing to make you a referral, you kind of like breeze through the first three steps and you get to the trust, which makes you that much closer to the buy.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

So that's why it's so powerful to have. Now, I guess not all of us has an email idea that we can generate and copy off of them. But I think we can take a few tippets from their idea to apply to our real lives, right? One is, and there's even if you're a business to consumer versus business to business, I think it kind of all applies because referrals just means that somebody is coming to you for business because somebody they trust said, hey, it's a good idea to go buy from them. And we call those people referral partners. So, you know, these are these are people that's kind of in our orbit that sometimes may even do the same thing we do, uh, maybe the same thing as your business. Um, case in point, like Savannah and myself. Um, technically, when we had a business, there was, you can say that we're in the exact same industry in outsource accounting services, but we serve different types of businesses. And so that actually made us referral partners to each other because what I can't service, I send to her and vice versa. And so referral partners doesn't have to be competent, like they can still be competition, yeah, but just not in always direct competition or there's minimal overlap so that they can actually refer a business. So that's probably the easiest thing to think about is maybe who in your circle in your industry is already in a data within the same um work that you do, but is somebody you can be friendly with, friendly enough with, so that you can strike up a referral partner with them. Um, the other thing is to search a little bit farther out. Now, this is the part I actually really do like is um, and I've talked about this with a couple just newer business owners who are who are like, you know, how do I get started? You know, the first thing I tell them is, you know, think about the people that intersect with what you do. So for us, because we're in the accounting industry, it's a little easier to speak to, but for us, it's not just um other CPAs or other accountants. It could also be bankers, it could also be business advisors and coaches, it can also be uh CFOs, outsource CFOs. Actually, some of my best referrals came from an outsource CFO. It could be um just things kind of a little bit farther out that you feel like may not have a direct intersection with your business, but they can still make great referral partners.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Right. And I think that if you think about uh if you give yourself uh the challenge of saying, think of five different industries or service providers that your client would work with.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

What are those five different? You're not the only one that can work with this person. And I think that that can go with a business to consumer as well. Yes. Uh, but we're speaking to business to business with this. And even though the hot the hotmail is a business to consumer uh example, you know, we're we're talking business to business, but I think in any situation you're in, let's say you're an electrician. Well, who else would they work with? They would work with a real estate agent, they work with an insurance agent, maybe a home inspector. A home inspector. Uh, you know, these are all the kinds of people that they would work with. They have family members who probably also have homes, you know. So those are the ways in which we want you to expand your thought on who could be in your referral village.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, so uh when I was doing this exercise for myself, um, even though I didn't really know what I was doing, but I kind of did it naturally, right? Because I'm kind of like, you know, it's great when I get referrals because they're usually fairly easy closes, especially if your referral partner actually knows what you do and they can uh refer somebody that's kind of a good fit for you. And I thought, wow, um, you know, this is definitely the way to go. Yeah, it takes sitting down and just being kind of creative about it and thinking about all the people that your I your future client, your potential client also touches, who could serve as somebody who is that, you know, I hate to use that cliche word, trusted advisor, but serve as somebody that they will listen to and call up and say, Hey, who do you who do you know for this?

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Right. Because then the person who's in your village basically becomes an advocate for you and uh warms up the sale, if you will. Same as we would do for our referral partners. So again, I'll use the electrician with a home inspector. Home inspector is going to tell you, you really need to get your electrical outlet outlets taken a look at because if you're planning on moving and something goes wrong here, it could cost you the sale. Well, you know, they're already advocating for the electrician.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Um, you know, no different than say a banker or yeah, let's say a banker for for me or for once upon a time you would have been like, hey, you might not get the loan you want. You won't be able to expand your business if your books are are crap. So you need to get somebody who can do their books well for you.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

So and also found really helpful too. People who can be referral partners may not be somebody who does anything close to your realm, but they have interaction with your potential clients. And it could just be that that person is just really likable. And they have a great network about them. And they're the people who you know somebody will just call up because they have integrity. And whoever they say is good, somebody will take their word for it and basically say, done, sold. You know, who is this person? Right. So sometimes it's also a personality fit of finding and um finding and also being yourself like a super connector in a sense, or somebody who just connects others. And then you you you are really expanding out. Now, there are other ways too, is you know, there are some more uh you know, straight to the point, which is you can also create referral incentives. So if somebody's going out of their way to refer you, you can think about a referral commission of some sort or some kind of thank you, you know, maybe a hundred-dollar gift card or a fifty dollar gift card or something to give somebody the incentive that they you know can refer you and get rewarded. Now, the great thing is most people don't really care so much about the reward. I feel like in business to business, what's important is actually trust and integrity, and you do a good job and you don't make them look bad. It forward is more the thing. Yeah. So I feel like with those kind of incentives, like I see it works so much better when it's a uh business to consumer.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

If it's business to business, typically it is a pay it forward mentality. I do you one solid, please do me one solid back. And so I think in business to business, it's you know, you yourself should also be a great referral partner for somebody else. And that kind of goes around full circle eventually.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah. The other thing too is, you know, somebody asked me a really great question one time. And um they were uh out networking, and you know how it is like you go out networking, and there's everybody at these events, and not everybody will be your client or be a referral partner, right, for you. And you know, and I was uh giving advice of like, you know, don't write them off. Actually, first of all, you never know who knows who. So that's the one thing that I always enjoyed like meeting people and getting to know them because they may know somebody else. And so they may not be a referral partner or your future client, but they may know somebody who would be. So you can always ask somebody to meet your referral partner that's maybe one degree separated. And that way you don't feel like, you know, why am I at this networking event? No, I don't want to meet anybody. There's nobody here I want to meet. Well, technically, everybody's an opportunity. Um, and you should make the ask. Now, the other thing is this goes back to uh networking etiquettes. Um, to to build a referral network or a village, as you call it, uh, there's gotta be some follow-up and touch points. Uh, before I felt like it was it was a little bit more manual to have that personal touch. Um, I know some great uh real estate agents, insurance agents, you know, uh people who typically have like a really big referral network, sit down and do the work, they have their um still called Rollodex. No, no, somebody has a Rollodex somewhere or index files, whatever. It was like 15 years ago, right? Okay. But you know, they're they're they're you know, I've seen them be really successful because they're so conscientious about reaching out to their referral networks and having that touch it. Now, I'm so glad to say in this day and age, we have software and platforms for that.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Virtual Rolodexes, yes, virtual ways of being able to touch in and staying in front of somebody because that's the one thing about referrals. They can come really quick or really slow. Yeah, and sometimes it's just when the opportunity presents itself. So you never know when the opportunity is going to present itself. And it's really easy for somebody to forget you, even if you made a great impression just a month or two later, because everybody's busy, they got lives going on. So using these platforms like LinkedIn, um, I would say is probably a good, pretty good platform to kind of keep your referral network warm. As much as I admit it, social media postings and stuff like that is such a challenge. Such such a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

I try. I I keep forgetting myself. So it is.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Well, I've kind of given it to the point of no more like I don't even follow the rules anymore because it's just like, you know, they're like, oh, you gotta be consistent, you gotta post at the same time. You gotta it's just, oh my gosh, guys, if you hate doing it, what is the point? Right. So, and to be quite honest, I've been watching my metrics and like it doesn't make a difference. It's all the same. So I'm like, I'm gonna post whenever I feel like it, when I'm happy to, because then my post is actually a lot more interesting that way. But the idea is, you know, like my funnel, I suppose, for when I meet people is you know, get their business card, get to know their contact, send them a nice email so that they actually have your contact in their email. Because how many people go searching their email to find contact information, right? Let's be honest. Right. And then um always add them to my LinkedIn network. Right. And then that way when I post on there, it'll show up on their feed. There's another way to stay connected. I found that to be incredibly effective in the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

It's almost like fishing, right? Like you want, you don't want to, you're not gonna go to the ocean to find a small, the find the small fish. I mean, you're it's gonna take you forever. Go to a small, go to the kind of lake or whatever to find what you want specifically and hone in what you're what you can what you're capable of, what you're good at.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And that's the thing, is if you post about what you what you're good at, what you do, um, and how you help people and what value you bring, you do that enough. People that sinks in people's minds. So it's so much easier than having that, you know, there's only so much time for one-on-ones. I'm gonna say you can't have one on one. I don't even care if you have Zoom these days, right? Like one-on-ones just take time, right? You have like what 45, it's gotta be at least an hour.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

I mean, you can't do it less than that, otherwise it becomes rude.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

It's offensive. Like, okay, so you can kind of do you can probably get away with 30 minutes if you really push it and you're really like specific and to the point. But in my experience, it always goes over. Now, I appreciate a good, effective one 30-minute one-on-one. And the way like I work those is you have 30 minutes one-on-one, but there's got to be something following up uh so that you have yet another interaction because you just can't get enough in in 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

I don't know that I could do 30 minutes. I feel like in 30 minutes, no, because I go to I go to a personal place, I go to a personal speech. Okay, I like to talk about personal things, not personal, personal, but you know, like I like them to share with me. You like the personal interaction? Yeah, I want them to share with me and feel very comfortable with me. Yeah, to get a sense of who I am, yeah, before we talk about business and and ways in which we can interact and intersect. So that to me, like I can't do it in less than 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Okay. Well, I I mean, I, you know, can only speak from like the experience I've had recently, like in the past year or so. I've kind of kept it to about 30 minutes, 45 minutes. It used to be, you know, an hour, an hour and a half, which I really enjoyed the conversation. Um, yet at some time I'm not really sure if the time was being effectively spent on both parties. So, you know, what happens is I mean, this is how I structure my one-on-ones now. Just if anybody is interested, and I I feel like it's been working out really well, is you know, first of all, you get on a one-on-one and everybody knows what you're here for, right? To be honest, right? We all know what we're here for. We're here to figure out if we can do business together or how can we help each other's business. And it's great. I love it. That's amazing that you get opportunities like that. And so typically, like if we're talking about 30 minutes, right? It doesn't always work out this neatly, but let's say proportionally, 10 minutes of it is about them, of course. 10 minutes is about me and the business. And then I always structure it so that the last 10 minutes, which always turns out to be like 15, 20 minutes, like you know, nobody really talks about themselves for 10 minutes. It's always more than that. Is then we talked about, and I'm really upfront about it. I was like, hey, I would love to end like, you know, at the end, I want to spend more time really going through and talking about how we can help each other and how do we see ourselves working together and brainstorming that. And I think that has been so nice because that's where we spend the time. Not that I don't want to hear about the personal stuff, I do, and that stuff seeps in too, because as we're talking, you know, we bring up personal anecdotes, but the personal thing sometimes can wait until the second or third meeting, you know, especially after we get a great synergy about, you know, how can we actually work with each other? Not just, well, what can I think about next time I go to a networking event? Like, who can I look out for you or what buzzwords can I hear? Right, right. To me, and again, this is my personal opinion. I feel like it's a little robotic. Um it kind of just falls out of your head as quickly as you get off the phone. Right. But when you're in a deep conversation and you're actually thinking and brainstorming together about maybe we can do a talk together. Well, what organizations are you in? What organizations are you in? Maybe is there a panel that we can put together? Things like that, or is there like a newsletter or an online Zoom call or a webinar we can like, you know, create? Then that becomes much more concrete and I feel like a much more effective uh one-on-one. And then together you're either each other's referral partners or you're working together to attract more referrals.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

That's actually not a bad idea.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Is that how you got me in? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Is that what you did to me? Gotta be a boozle. No, it's kidding. Yeah, yeah, got the boozle. Um no, no. What I'm saying, what I what you're saying, I think is fantastic because it opens up an opportunity, another opportunity for yourself, and also an opportunity for them, and then an opportunity for you together.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

So that's you're already seeing how each other work, right? You're really getting to see each other, how they think, how they work, and you can figure out okay, what's the best way for me to refer someone? Um, oftentimes referrals come down to sometimes personality. It depends what type of business you're in. Sometimes it is transactional, but a lot of times when you're talking about intimate referrals, it is personality driven. Yes. So that also gets you to see what personality they're like, so that you know when the right fur comes comes around, you're making the right kind of matchmaking opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Oh, yeah. Like everyone that I consider my referral partner is the kind of person that I would like to go have coffee with. Like I I they are genuinely good people that I also trust their work.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

So, and and it has worked out for me for many years, and I'm as it is it is as it has worked out for you, and it has also opened up new opportunities for you as well. So cute.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I gotta grow somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Aren't we all? We're all lucid at some points in time.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

And I have to it goes without saying that you know, one of a great plays to cultivate a referral network is and don't kill me for this, Savannah, is to join a group. Not gonna say anything. Keep looking down. She's looking down, she's not making eye contact with me anymore. She does not want to hear this, right? But the right group can really kind of build you like an instant village. Now you got to pick and choose, right? There are some groups that um there are some people will not will swear by and some people will definitely stay away from.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

And we're not gonna name the here because we don't wanna we don't wanna bias your views, right? However, this goes back to the whole fishing analogy that I used. The the groups are in this are the same way. If you join a group that has too varied of industries, I that sentence didn't make sense coming out of my mouth. But you know, like the industries are too varied, it's gonna become more difficult for one for you to trans for them to hear you, to translate what you're saying into ways in which they can hear you about what it is you're you do. And it's gonna be more difficult for them to find those people because they're just not in those right in those circles. So you're right, you gotta find the the group that fits what you do and will likely have more people in it like you.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, so it's interesting because if you think about it, right? So in our positions and what we do, we are in kind of a trusted advisor role.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Which means it usually takes longer to establish relationships with us for people to buy from us because what we do is so sensitive. Right now, if I were in, let's say, a trade business, if I was an electrician or I was in the HVAC business or I was a plumber, these groups would be great because there is a little bit less need for that trust, like that personal relationship before somebody will refer to you because you can just exemplify what is it that you do, and um people understand that right away. And it's not so much a personality match as in just quality of work. Um, so I think it depends on who you are and what you do, but groups could work out for you really, really well if it matches what your industry is.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

And the great thing is a lot of these groups allow you to come once or twice for free, or they'll have like a free uh event or something like that. You know, you can try them out, see if you like them. Maybe, maybe you got maybe somebody you know told you, hey, come to my group, I think you would do great.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

You can go there once or twice, depending on what their rules are, and see for yourself if it's a good fit. Maybe your friend says it's a good fit, and for you, you're like, absolutely not. But you know, never know.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Hey, look, so if I was if I was a tax accountant, we're not tax accountants. I don't know if anybody listened to the show, you know we're not tax accountants. We're we're operational management accountants and you know, stuff like the operational full focus, which okay, wait, and speaking less technical, think you know, CFO controller, that type of deal. So, you know, we don't do that. But if I wasn't tax accountant, I would be in every one of these groups. Yeah, yeah. Because that is something that no matter who you are, you will know somebody who probably needs a good tax accountant. And so when you're in these groups, incredibly powerful because these groups have a set cadence of meeting. The more you meet somebody, the more that's what they're actually banking on. The fact that if you have so many touch points, you establish that trust and rapport a lot faster and people feel a lot more comfortable referring to you. So if you're in an industry like that, please go for it. Right? All the groups in your area.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

And and it doesn't have to always be a networking group either. It could be an organization, like uh, you know, if there's a um an organization that gets together within your industry to do masterminding or masterminds are great too. Yeah, whatever, whatever it is, you can I'm sure you can find your your hive that way.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yes, yes, to basically use kind of the sheer force of how that group works to establish that trust. And people always give business to people that they trust. Because again, they don't want to look bad by giving you out as a referral.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Yeah, because you're supposed to be their company's value ad, just as they are meant to be your company's value add.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

So it definitely works both ways.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

So are we ready to move on to books and recommendations? I think so. Yay! So there's a saying that goes, put your money where your mouth is, and we're going to drill down a bit further to connect what we've discussed at a granular level to tangible sources you can take to the next level. What you got for us, Tiffany?

SPEAKER_02 37:33

So it's interesting because I when you were talking about the hotmail story, I actually thought you were going somewhere else with it. Which is fine, right? But um it did remind me of reading uh Ryan Holiday's book, which is called Growth Hack Growth Hack Marketing. It's a tiny little sliver of a book. It's on my bookshelf. Um it's it probably is less than a hundred pages because most of his books are. He's not very he's he's all for you know making it easy reading. But Hamail is one of the examples in there about kind of their um clever way of marketing going viral. So um I'm not saying that that book talks about specifically referral networks, but I do remember being incredibly inspired when I was reading that book about just clever ways to do marketing, like guerrilla marketing that isn't what everybody on the internet is talking about. And again, it's about marketing. And when you go out to find and build your referral network, you're marketing yourself. That's essentially what it is. It's not a sales uh activity because you're not closing anything at the end of it, but you're basically marketing. And so if you spend some time thinking about how you want to market yourself and read books like this, maybe I'll get you, you know, your brain juices flowing. Um and thinking about, you know, how can you be clever? I mean, I remember reading that hotmail story, and I'm like, that is so smart. I don't know how to replicate that, but it's so smart.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

I don't know that anyone could replicate it, but I mean it was really friggin' smart. Yeah, I mean they grew to and then uh we all know what they grew to, but just with one sentence, yes. I love you. Share the screen.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah, which is why I like the book because they also have other examples of kind of these kind of types of guerrilla marketing tactics that's worked really well. Now, again, obviously they were in the right place at the right time in the 90s when there was no wet mail. Okay, you can't do that today, there's plenty of wet mail, but again, like I said, you can get draw some inspiration from it. So I love that little tiny book. So Ryan Holiday, GrowTack Marketing, get a copy.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

All right. Well, I give a very truncated version of Jack and Sabir's journey in creating hot mail. So I have quite a few links that will be uh listed in our show notes. Uh, these are all the links that I used in part of my research to uh take from, to pull from for the show. So you need to take a look to learn more about this incredible story because there is quite a bit about Jack, but there's a whole lot about Sabir, and this man is fascinating too. So I also suggest reading Building a Referral Network by Wally Sharif and How to Sell Through Networking and Referrals by Andy Lopata. I also suggest that you make a list of the I also suggest, according to what Tiffany had said, that you make a list of the kinds of service providers or solutions your clientele would use. Take that list and start reaching out to people in those fields. The more connections you make, the more your referral village is going to grow. It doesn't matter if you're in a service or sales industry, if you're B2B or B2C, working together with other companies that may also work with your clients will help solidify your relationships and they're going to create your village. Also, you may want to consider becoming partners with other shops that are located near you. So, like if you're in a brick and mortar and/or and or you are B2C, or even if you're B2B, maybe you could host a barbecue together for your clients, a flash market, some kind of an event to get people to come out and see you and to your store, and to also bring people in into the stores around you. This kind of camaraderie could could bring sales to you and to your neighbors, which is what a village at its core does. Uh, cross-marketing, co-hosting events with companies that have no affiliation with you will broaden your reach. So it kind of speaks to what you were saying, Tiffany, about um, hey, what can we do together? This is one of those things that if you have a brick and mortar, this is one of those things that you could do together.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yeah, help each other out, pay it forward. I help you, you help me, everybody wins.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah. So speaking of paying it forward, uh, please hit those like buttons and the follow buttons and tell all of your friends about us. Our show is on all your preferred podcast platforms, social media, and YouTube. We'd love for you to also share our episodes. All of our links are posted below. Until next time, mind the business behind your business because all great successes start small.